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Talk:Sorcerer's Ring
Clarification So, with all my "convert gear" I can drop myself down to 78% hp from base. Now, I heard that the latent will still activate if I have Zenith Mitts on, as the hp/mp conversion drops me below 75%. So I'm not ACTUALLY at 75%, but the latent is active, thus treating me like I am? My "convert" gear is Black Cotehardie, Ether ring, Serket Ring, and Wivre hairpin. Those four items bring me to 78%. So by keeping my Zenith Mitts on, even though I'm not below 75%, it will activate as though I am? - Taomage Convert HP to MP I saw all this stuff and got excited about Medicine Ring for my WHM. Well, sadly, I did not find this thread ... http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=3;mid=118716685718061004;num=16;page=1 ... until after I changed my gear a whole bunch. This guy says he tried WHM and BRD Lv.50 rings, and that they don't work like the BLM one. So, I wasted a buncha time. Gonna post my brief test in Talk:Medicine Ring. I added a second bullet to the Sorcerer's Ring page, with as appropriate a description as I could think of. I also added "see discussion" to play it safe. Gonna add a similar bullet to WHM and BRD rings. *Note: I made changes along the way after some BLMs denied this ADAMANTLY without providing any public testing, but I have since deleted my misguided edits. Very sorry. I just wanna clear all this up!! --TheRya 08:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC) base HP Beyone popular thinking, this ring is activated by base HP, not current HP, you do not have to have yellow HP in order for this to work. http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/9607/hp3jd.jpg -HP Gear. http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1219/nuke6ec.jpg Nuke Gear. My -HP gear brings me down to 74.9% of my base HP; as you can see in my nuke gear 75% of my current HP would be 696, however I do not need to go down that far. 701/928 is not yellow HP, but it is 75% of base HP, and the ring still kicks in, ive done numerous tests, and has been confirmed by other BLMs. --SephirothYuyX 09:55, 25 September 2006 (EDT) *So, out of curiosity, what exactly are all the items in the -hp gear? --Cloud 14:08, 22 June 2007 (CDT) Just for reference here are some of the gears that can help activate this ring at level 59 (I dont know if I'm missing something, but this should be enough for almost everyone at level 59. I also dont know if you can activate this ring lower than level 59.): Ring -------- Ether Ring(lvl40)-30 Ring -------- Electrum Ring(lvl40)-20 Earring ----- Astral Earring(lvl45)-25 Main -------- Ivory Sickle(lvl47)-10 Shield ------ Astral Shield(lvl50) -30 Head -------- Gold Hairpin(lvl50) -12 Ring -------- Serket Ring (lvl51) -50 Range ------- Tiphia Sting (lvl58) -25 Body -------- Black Cothehardie(lvl59) -25 Neck -------- Star Necklace (lvl59) -15 ---Mordsith latent kicks in at 76% as well my macros set my HP to 76% and i get the latent effect kicking in, it should be "76% HP or less" insted of "75% or less" .--Namy Doesn't always work at 76%. See test results. http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=3;mid=118716685718061004;num=17;page=1 SE sometimes has a glitch when calculating Base HP. That is why some people can get the ring to work at 76% Base HP (no convert gear). Test results have shown this occurance happens only on specific Base HP. Just because some people got sorcerer's ring to work at 76% with their Base HP does not mean it will work for all Base HP at 76%. Test it out yourself. If you got it to work for 76%, change your base HP (example changing from prism cape to rainbow cape), then you will see that it is no longer 76% of your "new" Base HP but actually 75% of the new Base HP. It is speculative that the reason for the glitch is because SE either rounds up or down that is why with the glitch only some specific Base HP will work at 76%. -ffxi721 As mentioned in the note, the HP calculation for Sorc Ring ignores equipment in the Back and right Ring slot as well as Convert HP->MP gear; that would explain why changes in your back armor don't have the effect you might expect. --Valyana 09:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC) So what your saying is, lets say you have no right ring and no back equipment and not counting convert gear, you will for sure have sorc ring latent kicking in at 76% with any number base hp? That doesnt seem accurate though. How come Ive tested 75.09% base base hp with sorc ring active and when I raise it .01% to 75.1% base hp sorc ring became inactive? Ive tested some differnt base hp at 75.9% base hp with sorc ring working but not all base hp could pass 75.09% mark. Lets say we dont count back piece and right ring piece, then potentially some people could even surpass 76% base hp with that idea right? (if they consider back and right ring as part of base hp). I dont recall anyone with over +76% base hp (including back and right ring as calculated in base hp) and having sorc ring working. Example: 1000 base hp no convert, no right ring, no back piece. you need 760/1000hp correct? we add +80hp cape and +20hp right ring. we get 1100 base hp but if we only counting 1000 as our base hp, 760/1100 should be 69%. But with your calulations at 760/1100hp we would already be at 76% limit. If we are counting right ring and back piece as part of base hp then .76 of 1100 = 836. Under the assumtion that we dont count back and right right, 836/1100 this number would surpass your 76% mark because your counting 1000 as your base number. 836/1000 = 83.6%. Under your assumption 836/1100 (with +20hp ring and +80hp cape) will not work because your counting 1000 as your base hp excluding right ring and back. But it does work. All +HP equipment on during nuking should count towards your base HP. SE would not exclude right ring or back slots, that wouldnt make any sense. I dont understand how you can not calculate back and right ring slot as part of your base calculations. Is it because you take them off during macro swapping -hp gear? Meaning when you take off prism cape and switch to blue cape and then back to prism, you only count -15hp convert but you forgot to count -10hp also from taking off prism cape, for a total of -25hp. Example: 1000/1000 base hp with prism cape on (+10hp). take off prism cape you get 990hp. put on blue cape(-15hp) you get 975hp. put back on prism cape you get 975/1000 base hp. Are you counting only -15hp and not -25hp? If this is the mistake you made please correct the article. -ffxi721 I don't know who came up with the idea that right ring and back piece +hp dont affect base HP, but that information is wrong. It does affect your base HP that is why some people nuke in high +HP gear like BBQ ring and Gigante mantle. If you have 1000hp no convert, no right ring, no cape and you have 760/1000hp. I can assure you if you put on gigante mantle (+80hp) and BBQ ring (+75hp) your base hp will be 1155hp. That means you can have 866/1155 or in other words if you dont count right ring and cape as part of base hp, you can have 866/1000. Which is 86.66% of your "assumed" base hp. All +HP during nuking affects your base HP. And it is either 75.09% or 76.09% depending on if you have the base hp glitch. Its been tested. Please don't pass along wrong information. -ffxi721 From http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1061182#p1061182 : "To reiterate what was determined already, if you want to find out what your HP latent should be, do the following: Put on the gear you would be casting for that particular spell. Don't use any food. What's your max HP? Okay, subtract/add back any HP changes you get from HP+% gear, Convert HP > MP gear, Convert MP > HP gear, Back slot, or Ring2 slot. That's your new latent max HP ("LHP"?). Take that number, multiply by 0.76, then look for the greatest integer less than the number you get there (for instance if you get something like 615.6, then just lop off the .6 for 615, if the number you get is a whole number, subtract one). The resulting number is the highest HP you can get while retaining latent." I agree with the Allakhazam poster you link to apart from two things: * It's 76%, not 75%, this isn't a random glitch. * To find your BASE HP, it's not enough to take off your CONVERT gear. You also need to take off any HP+% gear, and anything in Back and R.Ring slots. I used to carry Gigant Mantle for latent myself, but stopped after I read that it doesn't work. BQ ring will work if you wear it on the left finger rather than the right. This has been widely tested as well. Please post specific information about the gear you were wearing in your tests; I'll do the same once I get back home next week. --Valyana 13:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Thanks for the link. Will do some testing to confirm the results. If its true than SE seriously need to fire some programmers. Its ridiculous that BBQ ring will work on the left ring but not the right ring. -ffxi721 Try 80% As per test results documented here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?fitem=3050;mid=1158569585292455614 The tester worked out the exact hp for when the latent kicked in. It just happened to be at exactly 80% of current hp... not base hp. :This is irrelevent because he tested while wearing convert gear, he has 511/682 in first test (but has zenith mitts) so his REAL base hp is 682+50 making the denominator of this % really 732 so his number for 75% is 549 both his first and his second test are below this value 511 and 545. All he did was prove the above stated facts taht you can be 100% if your base hp is 1000 and you wear 250 in covert you show as 750/750 when looked at but the math will show 750/1000 when doing the latent math. Tests I'm not sure what HP/MP convery gear you were using, but SephirothYuyX basically sums it up in a nutsell. I have not been able to have it active while under anything higher than 75% HP. While yes, maintaining white HP.--Charitwo 18:29, 23 February 2007 (EST) Where? Where exactly does he document his tests? I can't seem to find anything on his userpage pointing to it. Does he ever show the exact 1 hp boundary for where it activates like Hapernack does? Does he even show what his base hp is? The screenshots listed in the top post all show a character with armor on that modifies HP.. even his nuking armor does. Why not retest yourself? If you're so sure it's 80%, you could always try a test yourself. On a nuetral day for Thunder with no weather, for example. Do a multitude of tests on a mob that has no consistent resist/weakness to that element. It's the only way to prove it otherwise. Also I would take information found at Allakhazamhttp://www.allakhazam.com with a grain of salt, no offense. He was even doing his tests on Ebony Pudding, which are known to take a higher amount of magic damage than other mobs. Which could skew the results making it appear that the percentage activate was higher than originally thought to be correct. Which is why I suggest performing a similar test on mobs that do not take a higher than normal damage from nukes to get a more accurate assumption. --Charitwo 18:57, 23 February 2007 (EST) hmm.. I have seen puddings incur a somewhat different amount of bonus damage depending on what "mode" they are in. I doubt that affected the tests... but i will retest myself on some other mob to be sure and report back. Ok... After extensive testing, i have figured out how to figure out your exact HP needed to activate this latent. I can post screen pics if people really want to see.. but for now, i'll post a summary: Testing was done on earthsday and watersday using blizzard 1 on wild rabbits in w. ron. Testing was done initially with no equipment on except for sorc. ring. What i discovered in this config is that the most accurate way to describe the percentage hp needed is: Less than 76%. Example: Lets say you have 908 hp with no gear on. 75% of 908 is exactly 681, but you can get the latent to activate with more hp than this. 76% of 908 is 690.08, and 690 still activates the latent... but only because it is less than the exact (hp * 0.76). 691 does not activate the latent. If 76% fell on a whole number, you would have to have 1 hp less than that number. 9 hp may not seem like much, but when deciding between gear to activate this latent, it can make a difference. Unfortunately, the calculations do not remain this simple when further armor is introduced. Certain armor you may find yourself nuking in takes away or adds hp.. other armor converts hp to mp or vice versa. My initial testing and the testing done by the poster on alla seemed to show 80% of current hp, but this was a false assumption arrived at by failing to do testing with varying types of armor on. The "Less than 76%" description could be changed to "Less than 76% of current max hp" because any gear that adds or subtracts hp, such as penitents rope or rostrum pumps affects your starting value. So if you have 908 hp naked and add rostrum pumps, your current max hp drops to 878 and your latent activation hp drops from 690 to 667. This is only a problem if you nuke in rostrums of course. You could simply use rostrums for a maxmp configuration or as part of latent activation macro set.. and nuke in yigit... but its little things like this that tend to confuse people. To add further confusion to this mix, gear that converts hp to mp does not affect the above calculations. If you are nuking with zenith hands on, you need to add that 50 or 55 hp back on to your current max hp to figure out your latent activation point. So even though your nuking with 858 max hp now instead of 908, your latent would still activate at 690 current hp. In fact, most races (other than galka and maybe elvaan) nuking in full zenith gear would have their sorcerer's ring latent active with full hp. I also took a moment and verified that less 100tp is also a requirement. Given these facts, "HP less than 76% of unconverted current max hp & less than 100 tp" - is what i would use to describe the latent trigger for this item and others like it. If there is no further discussion in the following several days, i will alter the article to give it the above latent trigger description. Less than 100 TP? This test is all well and good, but, I would love to hear your explanation on why you believe TP is a factor in activating this latent. --Charitwo 16:53, 26 February 2007 (EST) RE: Less than 100 TP? BLMs might not care much about the TP requirements of this ring because they seldom find themselves with more than 0 TP and with the exception of farming or skillups, would never find themselves with 100 TP. The TP requirement is mentioned here only for consistancy. All of the lvl 50 JSE rings have these same requirements and although some of them may find mention of the TP requirement useful and some not, for consistancy, it would be best to have the same explanation on all of them. Eventually, after some more testing, i will be getting this latent page altered to reflect my finding. *If it's true, it is perhaps irrelevant to this particular ring. Maybe it would be best to leave it out of your article edit providing nobody else has anything else to add, as including it may further confuse others. --Charitwo 17:14, 26 February 2007 (EST) I doubt the additional TP requirement would confuse anyone. If anything the overall complexity of the requirement statement is what might cause confusion.. but i can leave the TP requirement off the update just to please you and try to make the rest of it less confusing. Would you agree to the following text? Notes: Latent effect is activated by having less than 76% HP (excludes HP modifications from HP -> MP gear). This can be obtained without going into yellow HP. For more detail on the latent requirement, please review the discussion area. -- Olorin 18:12, 26 February 2007 (EST) *That looks alright to me, fixed some formatting issues in it, though.--Charitwo 18:18, 26 February 2007 (EST) * The "excludes HP mods" bit seems misleading to me. The latent on Minstrel's and Medicine rings (and so I assume also Sorcerer's) are activated when your HP is below 76% of current max HP: that is, when says 75% or less. HP->MP gear affects your current max HP, so it is an important factor. --Valyana 23:35, 2 April 2007 (EDT) ** Apparently Sorcerer's Ring works differently from Minstrel's and Medicine rings. Odd, but I tested it myself and Sorc Ring definitely ignores my Zenith, while Minstrel's does not. --Valyana 01:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Testing with easier rings to see instead of running around trying to test on the blm ring which is kinda hard to tell sometimes why not test on lets say smn assuming all the lvl 50 rings have same activation, you can sit there with a summon out letting a mob hit you for low ammount of dmg, untill you hit the mark at which the laten kicks in (since that on is easier to see by just sitting there), after that test with 100% TP since some items do in fact have that as a condition such as maneatter and items like it. i personaly have not tested anything yet since i am fairly new to blm, but working on it steadily. but i think it would be alot easier to prove or disprove alot of assumptions going about it this way since certian things are a little harder to get an exact "prove" on, such as resist on mob, element weakness so on, and i have seen dmg jump around here and there on blm as well sometimes landing a little bit of extra dmg without the ring or any extra INT, so to prove without a dought i would suggest maybe going about something like this and letting a low lvl mob beat on you till activation (including HP- gear and HP convert gear and of course not useing both at same time). but overall alot of good info here. Please sign your comments Please sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~) so that others can follow the discussion without having to refer to the history page. --VxSote 17:07, 12 April 2007 (EDT) Easy Math for Latent effect Ok. After reading this nobody really gives an math example how to do the math for this ring. First things first. Equip you normal nuking gear. When you are done check your max HP. Then get a calculator and use this formula. HP x .75=X (the number you get) Then you do HP-X=Y (Y = the minimum amount of HP you need to take away from max HP in order to get Latent effect will kick in) Example. With full nuking gear my HP is 732. So it would be 732 x .75 = 549. . . 732 - 549 = 183. . . So I i would have to have get gear that takes away 183 HP or more to hit latent effect on ring when nuking. Best way and easiest way for me is using 4/5 Dalmatica Set gear to take away 200 HP then put on my nuke gear back on to give me 532/732 HP that gives me 72% HP.-- User:Yamiomi 02/23/2010 Damage Testing 99BLM/49RDM V.S. Easy Prey Goblin Guerrilla pet beetle during light/dark/fireday with clear weather. Damage was consistant between kills. (over 15 kills w/ & w/o ring equiped). INT 104+44 Equiped MAB+57(+57w/ring +47w/o ring) Teiwaz thunder dmg+3 4.7872% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thunder w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8364% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thunder II w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8800% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thunder III w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8689% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thunder IV w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8323% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thunder V w/ sorc w/o sorc Avg dmg increase for tier I-V = 4.8410% 4.7896% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thundaga w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8246% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thundaga II w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8000% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thundaga III w/ sorc w/o sorc 4.8096% dmg difference w/ w/o sorc ring equipped with Thundaja w/ sorc w/o sorc Avg dmg increase for -aga/aja = 4.8060% Avg dmg increase total 4.8235% 03MAR2012 *I removed the text about this from the main page. The latent is very specific about what it does. The actual damage it translates into will vary depending on your setup. For you, based on blm traits, gear, and the staff it was 217/207 = 4.8309%. This will be different for everyone so it doesn't belong on the main page. --Repogalka